Star Wars: The Clone Wars

[markatisu]

Which takes us back to the problem that most of the clones are going to be erased and turned into slaves. Reference to some being defective and thus able to resist order 66 are kind of interesting, but it's frustrating that that appears to be random chance since even an ally like Cody turned/will turn bad.

Yeah but Cody is much more in line with the order system then some of the others, meaning he obeys orders and even if he hates that one its his basic will to obey them. I really do think the amount of Clones that will override the Order is going to be a tiny few.

Rex on the other hand has been an independent thinker most of the series, we can all probably tell he is one that does not follow through with the order and might die or might not.

But how is that a problem that most of the Clones are going to be erased and turned into slaves? They are viewed by their creators and many in the SW Universe as merchandise already

Go back to the Episode with Heavy and his team, when the Jedi are having discussions on Kamino they are even told that without Jengo's DNA there will be more defects and that its up to them as the owners to decide what to do with the Clones that don't work the way they should

That will always be the dilemma and one of the reasons the Clones existence should bother everyone in the SW Universe. They made people for war, they are cannon fodder, and the Jedi of all people should have been against that from Day 1.

[13977]

WOW what a good episode, one of the best yet from the entire series! I was on the edge of my seat most of the way through it.

I'm pretty sure this is a spoiler thread but I'm gunna put a Spoiler Warning here anyway!










So Krell had turned to the dark side and I'm glad them went this way if not only to justify his characterization. Looking back on this past arc Krell has been like a heel in wrestling, getting us all riled up with his actions and speaking of wrestling I literally shouted oww!! when Krell did that back breaker on a clone, my girlfriend looked at me gone out and we got to see more of the Krell lightsaber action I was wanting.

When they had the two clones lined up for the execution and you saw the blasters fired, I thought 'wow, I cant believe they actually did it' and was relieved when the next shot showed they had purposely missed.
I was pleased with the ending but there is a small part of me that wishes Krell had escaped so we could have seen him in future episodes, and it would have been nice to see the clones report to Anakin, Kenobi and the Council just to see their reactions to Krell's turn.

After watching this episode I now think markatisu is right and this arc has partially been about setting up that some Clones will overpower their genetic programming and not follow Order 66 (though I still think it will be very few in terms of numbers) some lines in this epsidoe really drill that home, such as:

"Some clones are just defective, they aren't able to succumb to authority."

"We are loyal soldiers, we follow orders, but we are not a bunch of unthinking droids. We are men! We must be trusted to make the right decisions, especially when the orders we are given are wrong."

I don't think Order 66 erases or changes any of the clones personality or memories and turns them into slaves though (if I've interpreted you correctly gbagok). The clones are loyal to The Republic and Palpatine not the Jedi, and this episode show just that. IMO all Order 66 does is trigger a command saying all Jedi are now enemies of The Republic and are to be killed. I don't think the clones are even aware of the command before its issued, it's just something that has been programmed into there subconscious or genetic make up and Palpatine is probably the only person who can issue it.

I'm going to watch all four of these episodes again back-to-back this afternoon.

I think this episode had a lot of good messages for children today, about conformity, standing up for your self, questioning authority and not following it blindly.

[gbagok]

You've read me right 13977, but as far as I'm concerned, they might as well be erased if they are suddenly going to turn on their comrades in arms with the metaphorical throwing of a switch. To me that's the destruction of free will, and thus eliminates their pathos.

Yeah but Cody is much more in line with the order system then some of the others, meaning he obeys orders and even if he hates that one its his basic will to obey them. I really do think the amount of Clones that will override the Order is going to be a tiny few.

Rex on the other hand has been an independent thinker most of the series, we can all probably tell he is one that does not follow through with the order and might die or might not.

But how is that a problem that most of the Clones are going to be erased and turned into slaves? They are viewed by their creators and many in the SW Universe as merchandise already

Go back to the Episode with Heavy and his team, when the Jedi are having discussions on Kamino they are even told that without Jengo's DNA there will be more defects and that its up to them as the owners to decide what to do with the Clones that don't work the way they should

That will always be the dilemma and one of the reasons the Clones existence should bother everyone in the SW Universe. They made people for war, they are cannon fodder, and the Jedi of all people should have been against that from Day 1.

It's a problem for us as the audience. Or at least, for me. Their character development is all going to be overwritten. I find that hopeless. I don't really care if they learn lessons knowing most of them will be mind-wiped. I don't mind that for C3PO since he's not undergoing a personality change. But we're going from characters we sympathize with to those heartless faceless bad guys from the original Star Wars movies. That's a big change to make. That seems worse that dying to me. At least the Jedi can appear as ghosts and their beings aren't compromised. What hope is there of souls for walking cannon fodder? For me, that uncertainty makes the clone-centric episodes kind of morbid and tiresome. Either they're people who are born to be ruined, or they're just meat bags. We'll see if some defy Order 66, but I think the explanation for why Cody couldn't override it does not make this any better since he's been shown to be a good man and colleague. Even Anakin had a choice in going bad (lame as his turn finally was IMO).

[13977]

You've read me right 13977, but as far as I'm concerned, they might as well be erased if they are suddenly going to turn on their comrades in arms with the metaphorical throwing of a switch. To me that's the destruction of free will, and thus eliminates their pathos.

But to the clones it's the Jedi who have turned on their comrades in arms and the Republic and tried to over throw the Chancellor. To quote Obi-Wan "from a certain point of view." And the clones don't have 100% free will anyway, thats just the way they were engineered. So in a sense they are slaves and Anakin, a former slave now a slave master. An interesting comparison don't you think?

That will always be the dilemma and one of the reasons the Clones existence should bother everyone in the SW Universe. They made people for war, they are cannon fodder, and the Jedi of all people should have been against that from Day 1.

I think the Jedi were against it from day one "We are Keepers of the peace... not soldiers." said Mace Windu. But they were pushed/manipulated into a corner and had no choice but to lead the clone army or see the Republic fall. And in the EU many Jedi did leave the order as they were so against it.
I think the Jedi should have been more concerned with how the Clone army came into existence in the first place and it it really was Master Sifo-Dyas who commissioned them. Palpatine's manipulations really were nothing but brilliant.

[gbagok]

But to the clones it's the Jedi who have turned on their comrades in arms and the Republic and tried to over throw the Chancellor. To quote Obi-Wan "from a certain point of view." And the clones don't have 100% free will anyway, thats just the way they were engineered. So in a sense they are slaves and Anakin, a former slave now a slave master. An interesting comparison don't you think?

That's taking a certain point of view a little too far, I think. It's not meant to justify everything. You're presuming a lot about the frame of mind of the clones changed by Order 66. Is there a UE story that attempts to rehumanize them again and set them up as justifying their actions/orders with a shared lie about what happened? As far as them in the end being slaves after all, that's kind of why I don't much like watching story about them in CW that gloss over that. Interesting it may be, but also disturbing and unsatisfying as well.

Anakin's slave and master view is what shaped his whole Vader arc, so it's no surprise he's comfortable with it. It's interesting that he goes from being benevolent to force choking everyone, but as Uncle Tom's Cabin shows, a good master of slaves is still evil for owning slaves at all.

[wyldman11]

Aren't the last two episodes pretty much retelling the story that was put in the comics when the show first started?

[13977]

Aren't the last two episodes pretty much retelling the story that was put in the comics when the show first started?

Yeah its pretty much an adaptation of that story except for some reason they've totally changed what the Zygerrian species looks like

Not a bad episode, we had some great visuals in the market place. I thought it was strange Obi-Wan was recognised but not Anakin when EPIII implies Anakin has become quite a media celebrity with his heroics during the war.
Did anybody else think the head on the gliding lizard looked like Master Krell?

[markatisu]

Yeah its pretty much an adoption of that story except for some reason they've totally changed what the Zygerrian species looks like

They also clothed Ahsoka up a bit lol

[Shredder]

I guess they are holding off on the live action series.. either that, or totally changing it's focus and putting it on the main characters, after realizing how popular clone wars is.

Either way, I think they are smart to wait till this one is over. Learn from the lessons of star trek ;o)

[gbagok]

Yeah, weren't the slavers in the comic all red-headed or something? I like the bat ears though, they're good and evil looking.

It's interesting that they are again addressing slavery but not calling attention to the Clones' existence during all of this. Anakin never seemed especially put upon about being a slave in Episode One (he seemed a little too plucky to me), but I like how they are playing him here. I'd say his anger at the slavers is as much about what ultimately happened to his mother as about his own life as a slave, but still he seems like he was sleep-walking in the movies compared with this. The relationship between him and this queen feels like the start of an epic story too, I can only hope John Carter of Mars is this much fun to watch. Voice acting is different from screen acting, but Matt Lanter's presence as Anakin is a lot more interesting than Christensen's.

I guess they are holding off on the live action series.. either that, or totally changing it's focus and putting it on the main characters, after realizing how popular clone wars is.

Either way, I think they are smart to wait till this one is over. Learn from the lessons of star trek ;o)

I thought they were waiting because it would cost too much. The CW series has more expensive looking spectacle to it than a live action show would have. I think they should consider just sticking with it and choosing a new time period like redoing the Droids series or a pre-Empire Strikes Back show about Luke and the rebels. Star Was live action on TV has some bad history anyway. I liked the Ewok Adventure and Battle For Endor as a kid, but they haven't aged well.

[wyldman11]

I had just started this past weeks episode so I hadn't seen the species yet. I in away kind of made the interaction a bit odd, because there was some bit of sexual tension between Anakin and the leader lady (more her to him).

Lucas did say that was why they weren't going after the live action right now, but they were planning on implementing things to start making the cost go down.

[13977]

It's interesting that they are again addressing slavery but not calling attention to the Clones' existence during all of this. Anakin never seemed especially put upon about being a slave in Episode One (he seemed a little too plucky to me), but I like how they are playing him here. I'd say his anger at the slavers is as much about what ultimately happened to his mother as about his own life as a slave, but still he seems like he was sleep-walking in the movies compared with this. The relationship between him and this queen feels like the start of an epic story too, I can only hope John Carter of Mars is this much fun to watch. Voice acting is different from screen acting, but Matt Lanter's presence as Anakin is a lot more interesting than Christensen's.

I thought it was a funny coincidence that we'd been discussing slavery and now they do a story arc on it.

I thought they were waiting because it would cost too much.

Yeah thats what I read awhile back as well.

The CW series has more expensive looking spectacle to it than a live action show would have. I think they should consider just sticking with it and choosing a new time period like redoing the Droids series or a pre-Empire Strikes Back show about Luke and the rebels. Star Was live action on TV has some bad history anyway. I liked the Ewok Adventure and Battle For Endor as a kid, but they haven't aged well.

Oh I still have a soft spot for the Ewok movies. I'm really looking forward to the live action show but I do agree that when the Clone Wars wraps up they should do another animated series in a similar style, set in the Dark Times or Rebellion era. It would make sense as the live action one is meant to be aimed at an older audience, so they could do another animated one along side it aimed at the same age range as the Clone Wars.


So am I right in thinking there's no new episode this week?

[BlueStreak]

I just caught up in Kidnapped and Slaves of the Republic. Good storytelling here. The slavers are quite interesting.

I really hope we get to see a bit more of dark side Anakin. The force choke was a nice touch.

And I'm really curious to see how Obi Wan gets out of his predicament.

[13977]

So it the Clone Wars on a break until after Christmas now?
Strange they left it in the middle of a three part story arc.

[wyldman11]

So it the Clone Wars on a break until after Christmas now?
Strange they left it in the middle of a three part story arc.

Think so, and it's cartoon network.

[13977]

Minor Spoilers




The latest Star Wars Insider list the up coming episodes as:

Jan 6 - Escape from Kadavo - Final episode of slaver story arc
Jan 13 - A Friend in Need - Separatist Lux Bonteri, last seen in season three's "Heroes on Both Sides" renounces Dooku and the Separatists, but where do his loyalties lie now.
Look out for the return of Deathwatch!
Jan 20 - Deception
Jan 27 - Friends and Enemies
The Box
Crisis on Naboo
Massacre
Bounty
Brothers
Revenge

I suspect the 'Brothers' and 'Revenge' episodes will be the return of Maul and Savage.


[Edit]

New Darth Maul clip up, but still no shot of his legs:
http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/02/17/...al-darth-maul/

[Southzen]

New Darth Maul clip up, but still no shot of his legs:
http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/02/17/...al-darth-maul/

Not sure where I saw it, but I remember either a clip or concept art of him having a robot lower half, almost like a Bomarr Monk.

[wyldman11]

Not sure where I saw it, but I remember either a clip or concept art of him having a robot lower half, almost like a Bomarr Monk.

A comic was published as part of an elseworlds alternate timeline where he had robot spider legs.

[13977]

If your guys mean the Maul from the Visionaries TPC comic that is in the Infinities canon then I really like that design and would be happy with it in TCW. Though as I've said before in this thread I consider TCW series to be a separate canon as its has too many contradictions to fit in with the rest of the EU.

[wyldman11]

116952_slide.jpg

Figure some of you may get a kick out of this one.

[13977]

116952_slide.jpg

Figure some of you may get a kick out of this one.

that is pretty sweet!

More videos of Maul up:

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...DAY_143894.asp
http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...cre_143889.asp

This episode looks really awesome. I've never going to consider a story where Maul comes back to life canon but I'm still REALLY looking forward to this

[illicitjedi]

Massacre was AWESOME and creepy. I thought the higher witches would have been a little more powerful, but eh, I always expect my magic users to go over the top.

[Firefly]

The 1st part of the season finale was pretty good. It looks like Darth Maul will go from spider legs to two legs in the 2nd part. I hope they give a pretty good explanation on how he could still be alive.

[gbagok]

I was very happy to see Mother Talzin is still alive after the events of Massacre. It was kind of unclear, like she'd done a Obi Wan in New Hope or something, but she appears to still be pulling the strings. I hope she gets a show down with Darth Sidious. I would totally expect them to be conspiring somehow. Where the heck is her action figure, Hasbro? Her and the three Force spirits from last year should be toys by now, not the 97th Cad Bane! I'm not sure how to feel about Maul. He's not really himself, but I find myself liking Sam Witwer a lot though. His voice work was great as the evil son last year and he makes Maul pretty freaky as well.

[Bonehead]

I was very happy to see Mother Talzin is still alive after the events of Massacre. It was kind of unclear, like she'd done a Obi Wan in New Hope or something, but she appears to still be pulling the strings. I hope she gets a show down with Darth Sidious. I would totally expect them to be conspiring somehow. Where the heck is her action figure, Hasbro? Her and the three Force spirits from last year should be toys by now, not the 97th Cad Bane! I'm not sure how to feel about Maul. He's not really himself, but I find myself liking Sam Witwer a lot though. His voice work was great as the evil son last year and he makes Maul pretty freaky as well.

I'd say the exact opposite.

I don't need any more Mother Talzin and the whole Maul episode was horrible. Bringing back Maul is THE wort idea that they could do. The whole reason it was done in the Visonaires comic was because it was so absurd. Pulling ideas from that book is a horrible idea. Bringing back Savage makes sense. I would have much more preferred if they had done some kind of story where either Ventress kills Savage or the other way around. I thought Season 4 was supposed to be about Anakin slowly turning towards the Dark Side? We've hardly seen any of that except for the slave traders arc.

Cad Bane has only had 3 figures...so far. His new figure from his season 4 arc has been already confirmed by Hasbro. The problem is that Hasbro keeps re-releasing the same one in different packaging. Plus it's not even the best version. It's the first figure w/o Todo and the extra articulation.